Curse

Xenomortis · Oct 07, 2010, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

Ofc there can be bad Panics and bad SS's. but going in assuming that your Panic is bad in a pug is no real reason to chance SS. Both benefit from adj. foes, so inturn both will be cast into mobs with that criteria. This will result in SS not triggering enough to be a sufficient elite.

The actual number of actions Panic will interrupt compared with the total number of actions attempted is actually rather small. The !!!s you see from Panic aren't caused when something is interrupted - they're just attempted interrupts caused when a skill is successfully cast. Unless the mob Panic has been put on is rather large and everything stays balled up, SS will still trigger.
Also, SS and Panic are typically put on different foes - SS works best with larger physical mobs where Panic isn't too useful, conversely Panic is good for caster disruption but SS is rather pitiful against them.
But above all; if the group's SS isn't being effective but they're succeeding, then why is the group bothering with SS at all? Just keep the SS Curses bar and swap SS for Wail of Doom.

Essence Snow · Oct 07, 2010, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

The actual number of actions Panic will interrupt compared with the total number of actions attempted is actually rather small. The !!!s you see from Panic aren't caused when something is interrupted - they're just attempted interrupts caused when a skill is successfully cast. Unless the mob Panic has been put on is rather large and everything stays balled up, SS will still trigger.
Also, SS and Panic are typically put on different foes - SS works best with larger physical mobs where Panic isn't too useful, conversely Panic is good for caster disruption but SS is rather pitiful against them.
But above all; if the group's SS isn't being effective but they're succeeding, then why is the group bothering with SS at all? Just keep the SS Curses bar and swap SS for Wail of Doom.

Wiki:

Quote:

When foes are interrupted due to their allies activating skills, they say "!!", similar to Cry of Frustration.

Good point on physicals.

The whole deal here is PUGs. Most necros seem to bring SS to PUGs. I have had many refuse to drop it even though a Panic was in the group. Granted the other skills in the necros bar are still desired (the reason they still bother with the necro), there is not much to desire about SS when a Panic is in the group. Idk know what I am trying to get from this...maybe just options to suggest to the stubborn lot , that don't see the conflict between the skills.

LifeInfusion · Oct 07, 2010, 08:00 PM // 20:00

"For 1...8...10 second[s], target foe and all nearby foes are hexed with Panic. When a foe hexed with Panic successfully uses a skill, all other nearby foes are interrupted. " (10e, 1cast, 15 recharge)

I don't get what's the issue. SS still triggers on attacks. Panic interrupts skills... plop SS on melee and Rangers/Paragons.

Regardless, take Mark of Pain, Weaken armor, Enfeebling Blood, and Barbs.

SS: "Deals 5...29...35 damage to target and adjacent foes whenever this foe attacks or uses a skill." (15e, 2cast, 10recharge)

The way I see it, Panic on caster mobs (and touchers in DoA), SS on melee.

Essence Snow · Oct 07, 2010, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Panic interrupts adjs. on use of a skill......it interrupts anything. I guess this all came about when I tried running SS while a guildie was running Panic. I noticed that SS was almost not worth casting. Then in various Z PUGs I took notice of how many Panics and SS were in the same groups. If you haven't tried it for yourself, I suggest trying it. It'll become fairly easy to see what's the "issue".

LifeInfusion · Oct 07, 2010, 08:38 PM // 20:38

I must be an idiot, I run my SS necro with a Panic hero in caster heavy zones. I haven't noticed SS not working... maybe because Panic doesn't trigger every time. Most mobs don't skill spam.

At least the necro has other viable elites. It's not a one hit wonder...no need to panic (pardon the pun).

Imagine if SoS got nerfed to make one spirit.

Glints Bane · Oct 07, 2010, 08:41 PM // 20:41

I understand your point Essence but honestly the difference isn't enough to make SS completely useless. First there is an overlap in time assuming SS and Panic were casts at the same time. 5 seconds in HM with IAS on the badguys can get around 100 dmg on different targets with SS (12-16 curses) not to mention the successful pops during the time of panic. Yes SS deals less damage when Panic is up BUT it still deals enough AoE to be something usefull.

I still agree with Xenomortis on this because you can't assume everything gets a rupt. However I have noticed when I run with my guild or other panic mesmers that know how to use Panic, SS becomes less effective to the point that AP would just be a faster, more viable option BUT this topic is applying to PuGs which in general don't cause that problem (from what I have observed).

Xenomortis · Oct 07, 2010, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

At least the necro has other viable elites.

Not really. Other Curses elites really suck. Wail of Doom is a desperate grab (but in a good team beats SS). They have other viable builds (MM and Orders spam namely) though.
The Mesmer has other stuff too though - Psychic Instability and Fevered Dreams can both beat Panic fairly soundly on a human bar (the Nec gets FD too).

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Imagine if SoS got nerfed to make one spirit.

People would run Signet of Ghostly Might, Soul Twisting or Rit Lord instead.

LifeInfusion · Oct 07, 2010, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Not really. Other Curses elites really suck. Wail of Doom is a desperate grab (but in a good team beats SS). They have other viable builds (MM and Orders spam namely) though.
The Mesmer has other stuff too though - Psychic Instability and Fevered Dreams can both beat Panic fairly soundly on a human bar (the Nec gets FD too).

People would run Signet of Ghostly Might, Soul Twisting or Rit Lord instead.

I didn't say Curses elites... I meant that the profession doesn't hinge on one elite.

It's in the necro forum, so I am assuming the Panic mesmer is the constant.

About SoS:
* 21 dmg per spirit at 12 Channeling, 24 at 14 channeling, 26 at 16 channeling

Signet of Ghostly Might lacks the bar compression of SoS. You'd need to slot half your bar full of spirits (and set them up, which may cost from 15 to X energy and a few seconds every time spirits die). What makes SoS so ridiculous is if all your spirits get nuked/blow apart by AoE melee it takes <1 second and 0 energy to put them all back up. You also can't spec into Splinter weapon as high since most attack spirits save for Bloodsong are in Communing.

The way I see it...SoS is mind-numbingly easy to play because you don't need to micro spirits. You plop SoS, painful bond, and the rest of your bar can either be channeling skills or more spirits.

Rit Lord is pretty lame because of energy management but the extra damage/HP from higher spirit level is a plus. You would need more Spawning power, spirit siphon, etc.

Soul Twisting is a contender. It's in spawning though, so 11+1 spawning to have 3 spirits instantly recharge. Basically all your spirits would be communing ones since channeling only has Bloodsong, Gaze of Fury (doesn't work unless there is already a spirit), Destruction, Agony.
--> Anguish = 15e, double damage (17,19,21 damage at 12,14,16 communing but double vs those with hexes)
--> Pain = 5e (no reduction) , so 5 more energy than SoS...with the benefit of more damage per hit (25 at 12 communing, 28 at 14 communing, 32 at 16 communing)
--> Shadowsong = 15e , has Blind (more utility) but no damage
--> Dissonance = 25e, (17,19,21 damage at 12, 14,16) has interruption (more utility)
--> Disenchantment = 25e , has enchant removal (more utility)
Soul Twisting solves the problem of the utility spirits dying before they recharge. To match one skill (SoS) you'd need Anguish + Pain + ST.

SoS has a PvE/PvP version for this reason.

Xenomortis · Oct 07, 2010, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Yes, the other elites are inferior to SoS, but the Rit profession doesn't hang by SoS alone. Spirits are strong and pretty much any spirit heavy build is fairly mindless to play. With a little bit of care you can solo a lot and in a team, you reduce the difficulty of content greatly. This can be achieved without SoS, it's just that SoS is the worst offender since it makes doing it really easy.

With the other elites, the only real loss from not speccing Channeling is Spirit Siphon and Painful Bond - you don't need to care too much about Bloodsong.

LifeInfusion · Oct 07, 2010, 09:25 PM // 21:25

You reply fast!

Anyhow, my point was that you
* don't need to spec into Spawning, or Communing which leaves more attributes in Splinter weapon/painful bond
* have more energy since it is a signet and doesn't need to be prepped by ST/SoGM/Rit Lord/whatever
* have more flexibility in your bar due to not having 2 extra skill slots

What other skill has the potential of 3 skills? I guess Monks' UA counts as 2 slots... Enraging charge as well (IMS and Adrenaline in one)

EDIT: Also, it is a lot harder to mess up an SoS rit than any of the other builds. All you need to do is put SoS on the bar with 14 channeling and you're golden. The rest of your bar is largely irrelevant except to maximize it (Painful Bond, summon spirits, Spirit siphon to fuel those, splinter weapon, etc.). That's why PUGs look for SoS rits I suppose... it's like Ursan. Just having that one skill on your bar means you can do something useful as long as it you use it.

I monked on my HB monk in a PUG one day. The Restoration rit (no second monk) was bright enough to bring shelter with no e-management but also did not have Mend Body and Soul (we had an SoS rit so this would have removed 3+ conditions...). The warrior spammed "I have blind on me!" and I said "sorry man I thought every ritualist stapled MB&S on their bar so I dropped my condition removal for selfless spirit.". The ritualist replied with "live and learn I guess".

Xenomortis · Oct 08, 2010, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

What other skill has the potential of 3 skills? I guess Monks' UA counts as 2 slots... Enraging charge as well (IMS and Adrenaline in one)

Trivial.
You Move Like a Dwarf and Aura of the Lich spring to mind. Also Cry of Pain is direct AoE damage, Suffering and an AoE interrupt rolled into one with a very easy to meet condition.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

I monked on my HB monk in a PUG one day. The Restoration rit (no second monk) was bright enough to bring shelter with no e-management but also did not have Mend Body and Soul (we had an SoS rit so this would have removed 3+ conditions...). The warrior spammed "I have blind on me!" and I said "sorry man I thought every ritualist stapled MB&S on their bar so I dropped my condition removal for selfless spirit.". The ritualist replied with "live and learn I guess".

A result of not checking bars before starting.

Really, this discussion isn't relevant. The power of SoS isn't too important if the original claim seemed to be that it was the only skill holding the Rit up (it isn't), which is what I read from your comment.

WhiteAsIce · Oct 08, 2010, 02:17 AM // 02:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Also Cry of Pain is direct AoE damage, Suffering and an AoE interrupt rolled into one with a very easy to meet condition.

We must be playing different games if CoP does an AoE interrupt.

Cuilan · Oct 08, 2010, 02:51 AM // 02:51

See what the rest of the mesmer bar is. If it's mostly Pain Inverter and random skills, gopher it. I take Cry of Frustration and sometimes Tryptophan Signet, good luck with that.

Chthon · Oct 08, 2010, 05:23 AM // 05:23

If the team had physicals, probably AP-MoP or Orders.

If it didn't, probably minions. (Or even just if I was in the mood for minions.)

If I wanted to synergize with the Panic, I'd run FD and make sure to stick TrypSig in as well. I've found that stacking dazed + arcane conundrum + trypsig makes cast times so long that nothing gets out under Panic.

Xenomortis · Oct 08, 2010, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhiteAsIce

We must be playing different games if CoP does an AoE interrupt.

This is the second factual error I've made in this thread (that's been noticed and identified at least).
It's still an interrupt though and so my point still holds.

LifeInfusion · Oct 09, 2010, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Trivial.
You Move Like a Dwarf and Aura of the Lich spring to mind. Also Cry of Pain is direct AoE damage, Suffering and an AoE interrupt rolled into one with a very easy to meet condition.

A result of not checking bars before starting.

Really, this discussion isn't relevant. The power of SoS isn't too important if the original claim seemed to be that it was the only skill holding the Rit up (it isn't), which is what I read from your comment.

YMLAD is PvE only from the start. It's a snare, KD and armor ignoring instacast...

Aura of the Lich is +1 DM /SR and exploits all corpses... corpse control.

However AotL is not a mindnumbing bar to play. It doesn't require only pressing a 0 energy skill on your bar to create 75+DPS.

SoS is a bar you want your PUG group rit to play because as long as they are capable of pressing the SoS key and summon spirits they bring something to the table. Kind of like searing flames + glowing gaze...except even easier. I've seen eles mess up Searing flames.

Xenomortis · Oct 09, 2010, 11:25 AM // 11:25

Stop moving the goalposts.

Any bar can be cocked up by anyone. It's just more impressive when it happens to something like SS or SoS.

Xiaquin · Oct 09, 2010, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Replace Icy Veins with Wail of Doom and you have a better bar. Or just take Spirit Light Weapon over Icy Veins - there's no reason to take that crap in PvE.

Ok, I guess I just suck. How is a spammable hex with good AoE effect (that would synergize well with a Panic mesmer's requirements) that can rack up damage when the enemies start falling over fail in comparison to an elite that works for only a few seconds, hits you with health sac and is down for 5 times longer than it lasts, and only affects one foe?

SLW I can understand, but resto itself is a win every time. Barring that, I have never thought of WoD as anything more than stupid. How do you make it not suck?

Xenomortis · Oct 09, 2010, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xiaquin

Ok, I guess I just suck. How is a spammable hex with good AoE effect (that would synergize well with a Panic mesmer's requirements) that can rack up damage when the enemies start falling over fail in comparison to an elite that works for only a few seconds, hits you with health sac and is down for 5 times longer than it lasts, and only affects one foe?

SLW I can understand, but resto itself is a win every time. Barring that, I have never thought of WoD as anything more than stupid. How do you make it not suck?

Wail of Doom: For 4 seconds, target foe is utterly useless.
That's useful. If there's a monk keeping targets alive - Wail it. If there's an Ele casting a nuke - Wail it. It's useful as a sort of spike skill (akin to Rend) and a prot, which is more than anything a fairly pathetic hex that will inflict a rather meager amount of cold damage (and a bit more conditionally) can do.

It requires a bit of coordination, but not too much.

Xiaquin · Oct 09, 2010, 10:48 PM // 22:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Wail of Doom: For 4 seconds, target foe is utterly useless.
That's useful. If there's a monk keeping targets alive - Wail it. If there's an Ele casting a nuke - Wail it. It's useful as a sort of spike skill (akin to Rend) and a prot, which is more than anything a fairly pathetic hex that will inflict a rather meager amount of cold damage (and a bit more conditionally) can do.

It requires a bit of coordination, but not too much.

4 seconds with at least 13 SR. Even at 12 with IV, the damage isn't too horrible, but I guess that's debatable. My thinking was, with Panic mesmer in the party, there's AoE opportunity (after all, why bring Panic otherwise).

I understand how WoD can make a target useless, but, it's 4 seconds. Count to that out loud. If you engage a mob and shut down an enemy, great, but that is a very short period.

Alternatively, why not interrupt or shut down, like the Panic mesmer is doing (he/she cannot get everything)? If you can hit it with Wail, you can shut it down with a non-elite. Wail would allow Meteor Shower to activate, and regardless of attribute level, that will annoy and can easily be punished to great effect by something like CoF.

I see reasons to take WoD for really annoying enemies and bosses, but, for general use, I think it's application is limiting and interrupts/shutdown sound more attractive. There's lots in both mesmer and necro lines that would put healer/nukers through misery, for a longer period. All would be hexes, like WoD, and subject to removal, don't forget.

Not to come off in an abrasive way, I just am sketchy about elites that have limited use or could be beaten in some cases, especially when the length:cool down ratio is unfavorable. However, it's nice hearing new strategies I haven't considered.